And a Christmas present for the Redwall fandom, since they put up with me and my weird headcanons. A little Cornflower and Matthias, walking in a winter wonderland I guess! Merry Christmas you guys!
I’m going to tag the people I can remember off the top of my head so sorry if I forget anyone!
Apparently lots of people are somewhat tired or unimpressed by Martin/Rose but simply not talking about it. Well, I’m glad to be the scapegoat for you guys to talk about gay/ace/not-with-Rose Martin.
I will accept this burden.
Well Martin could be ace- the book never mentioned that he loved Rose romantically. He could have cared for deeply as a friend and the impact could cause just as much damage.
I agree 100% you can talk to me about ace!Martin literally any day and I’ll love it
Speaking of Redwall: I know we talk about how the stories/formulas can get repetitive at times but do people ever bring up the writing itself?
Cause in 2013 I worked three jobs spread across two cities that were 80 miles apart. In order to make the twice-weekly hour-and-a-half drive bearable I listened to every Redwall audio book back to back.
You really notice things in a situation like that. Like the fact that “he struck like chain lighting” must have been Jacques’ favorite phrase to write because it shows up in almost every book. There are a few other things that show up nearly verbatim again and again.
It’s not a bad thing, necessarily, but it made me hyper aware of phrases like that in my own writing. It’s just kind of weird that for someone who is so good at description that he would consistently fall back on the same phrases.
It didn’t bother me so much when I was younger–I put the series on a pedestal, so I didn’t think about the flaws too much. As I got older and my tastes/experiences changed, though, I definitely could see them. When I was reading “The Rogue Crew”, it drove me crazy how often Jacques described Razzid “wiping his bad eye” or something along those lines. Next time I read that book, I’ll have to do a count.
That probably has something to do with it too, I guess. I wouldn’t have noticed when I was younger.
But to be honest the only Redwall books I read as a kid were Redwall and Taggerung (right after it came out). I didn’t read most of them until late in high school/ early college. And even then I only noticed similar phrases between books, not within. I bet if I focused on that a few would probably come up!
Speaking of Redwall: I know we talk about how the stories/formulas can get repetitive at times but do people ever bring up the writing itself?
Cause in 2013 I worked three jobs spread across two cities that were 80 miles apart. In order to make the twice-weekly hour-and-a-half drive bearable I listened to every Redwall audio book back to back.
You really notice things in a situation like that. Like the fact that “he struck like chain lighting” must have been Jacques’ favorite phrase to write because it shows up in almost every book. There are a few other things that show up nearly verbatim again and again.
It’s not a bad thing, necessarily, but it made me hyper aware of phrases like that in my own writing. It’s just kind of weird that for someone who is so good at description that he would consistently fall back on the same phrases.
I’m gonna lie, I’ve been getting into the books so far (still on the first) and as much I’m enjoying them the prose itself is not the best thing in the world and often feels really low-rent like you might get from a cheap paper-back or competently written fanfic.
I think we can all agree that Redwall is not the best of the books. I mean it was the first one. And they are for children so you know.
Personally I think his writings is pretty good and definitely stands out from other people writing for the age group. I’ve always found Jacques to be one of the the authors capable of dragging me in completely.
But of course everyone has different things they like, so, it’s fine!
Speaking of Redwall: I know we talk about how the stories/formulas can get repetitive at times but do people ever bring up the writing itself?
Cause in 2013 I worked three jobs spread across two cities that were 80 miles apart. In order to make the twice-weekly hour-and-a-half drive bearable I listened to every Redwall audio book back to back.
You really notice things in a situation like that. Like the fact that “he struck like chain lighting” must have been Jacques’ favorite phrase to write because it shows up in almost every book. There are a few other things that show up nearly verbatim again and again.
It’s not a bad thing, necessarily, but it made me hyper aware of phrases like that in my own writing. It’s just kind of weird that for someone who is so good at description that he would consistently fall back on the same phrases.
I have noticed that! Not that phrase specifically but… I think he was aware of Terry Pratchett’s work, because I noticed some parallels on Jacques’ part. There was one book where a character was on a squirrel’s back (or something… I’m shit at remembering Redwall books lately) and made a mental observation that it was not heights one should be scared of, because it was the ground that killed you on impact.
Here’s a similar passage in Pratchett’s “Sourcery”:
“I’m not going to ride on a magic carpet!” he hissed. “I’m afraid of grounds.” “You mean heights,” said Conina. “And stop being silly.” “I know what I mean! It’s the grounds that kill you!”– (Terry Pratchett, Sourcery)
SO… yeah, I’m not sure which came first, or what maybe unpleasant implications it has, but there it is.
I’ve read a grand total on 1.5 Terry Pratchett books so I can’t really jump in here but considering how big he was, it would be hard not to be aware of him.
But I don’t think something like that is that big of a deal? Writers borrow from each other all the time and as long as it’s not super blatant no one gives a shit.
I guess everyone has different crutches to deal with…
Speaking of Redwall: I know we talk about how the stories/formulas can get repetitive at times but do people ever bring up the writing itself?
Cause in 2013 I worked three jobs spread across two cities that were 80 miles apart. In order to make the twice-weekly hour-and-a-half drive bearable I listened to every Redwall audio book back to back.
You really notice things in a situation like that. Like the fact that “he struck like chain lighting” must have been Jacques’ favorite phrase to write because it shows up in almost every book. There are a few other things that show up nearly verbatim again and again.
It’s not a bad thing, necessarily, but it made me hyper aware of phrases like that in my own writing. It’s just kind of weird that for someone who is so good at description that he would consistently fall back on the same phrases.
I’ve seen this post going around and I got the idea that we should have some fun. Please describe any Redwall character or book in the worst way possible using the verbage of a Florida Man news headline. (For those who don’t know about Florida Man, click me!!)
Here’s one to start the fun: Area Man Haunted By Huge Non-Sentient Bell, Refuses to Dispose of Source of His Nightmares (Gabool the Wild)
Local Man Takes Day Off From Work and Returns Several Years Later with Wife and Daughter to Fire His Old Boss (Rakkety Tam)
Local Man Is Invited To Adventure, Ruins Everything. Friends Don’t Know Why They Brought Him Along in the First Place (Triss)
Local woman helps teen son run away to join military (The Long Patrol)
Ancient Lost Burial Site Discovered by Local Toddler (Mattimeo)
Local Man Saves Warrior in Training; Is Stabbed Repeatedly and Actually Lives. For Once. (Redwall)
Foreign man forms largest Blue Man Group tribute. Then proceeds to play worlds biggest match of king of the hill. (Ungatt Trunn)
Apparently lots of people are somewhat tired or unimpressed by Martin/Rose but simply not talking about it. Well, I’m glad to be the scapegoat for you guys to talk about gay/ace/not-with-Rose Martin.
I will accept this burden.
I just wanna talk about Martin all the time, man. Doesn’t matter how. He can be the gayest, acest, biest, straightest, I love it all.
If we’re talking about in terms of how the Martin-Rose relationship was written, then I can see that. It wasn’t particularly well developed and seemed to follow the Disney-esque love at first sight formula. A while ago when one of the RedwallWeekly prompts asked for a mousemaid falling for Martin, I noticed how everybody seemed to write Martin as full of regret and incapable of establishing romantic relationships. What with his alleged memory loss (which I have my doubts about), I think he very well could have formed a close relationship. I can think of reasons he wouldn’t, but still.
In regards to hypothetical orientations: straight-celibate.
I see Martin and Rose as really close friends or platonic partners (a QP relationship), but I never hardcore romantically shipped them like a lot of people seem to. To be honest, I am a little tired of the hardcore Martin/Rose shippers as well because there are SO MANY other characters and ships, but the only ship that is talked about is Martin/Rose.
Like can we talk about Tammo and Pasque from the Long Patrol? Because they are precious. I love them so dang much. ;A;
I usually don’t ship the “obvious” straight ships because the fact that the reader is expected to ship them makes it seem so…forced to me. But Martin and Rose are both really good characters. They cared about each other so much, and they don’t NEED to be in a romantic relationship to drive that point home. They love and support each other regardless.
Personally I headcanon Martin as aro/ace because he seems more dedicated to going on adventures and fighting evil than settling down with anyone…though I can also accept him being gay if he’s with Gonff because Gonff can keep up with Martin.
I like Martin and Gonff except for Columbine who is amazing? Idk, threesome with Gonff as the pivot? This is also acceptable to me.
Seriously, I like a lot of ship also whether regular or trans headcanon Tammo and Pasque are adorable~
Apparently lots of people are somewhat tired or unimpressed by Martin/Rose but simply not talking about it. Well, I’m glad to be the scapegoat for you guys to talk about gay/ace/not-with-Rose Martin.
I will accept this burden.
I just wanna talk about Martin all the time, man. Doesn’t matter how. He can be the gayest, acest, biest, straightest, I love it all.
If we’re talking about in terms of how the Martin-Rose relationship was written, then I can see that. It wasn’t particularly well developed and seemed to follow the Disney-esque love at first sight formula. A while ago when one of the RedwallWeekly prompts asked for a mousemaid falling for Martin, I noticed how everybody seemed to write Martin as full of regret and incapable of establishing romantic relationships. What with his alleged memory loss (which I have my doubts about), I think he very well could have formed a close relationship. I can think of reasons he wouldn’t, but still.
In regards to hypothetical orientations: straight-celibate.
I disagree with saying ‘poorly developed’, when there was little to no romance between them in the books – actually I’d argue it’s one of the best developed relationships, because it lead the reader to wonder about romance between them on their own, while firmly establishing that they were the closest of friends at the least. I DO agree that he could form a close relationship with another later on, but never one that would overshadow the one with Rose (though Gonff comes close). I can see him as straight celibate too.
Personal headcanon (I guess): Rose era; straight, post-Rose; biromantic asexual celibate. Or something.
I love how everyone has such detailed reason for everything and then me just “he just feels gay idk”
Still I love the discussion and all the potential orientations!
I agree that the relationship isn’t poorly written – they have a very beautiful and close friendship and I appreciate that. But Jacques definitely had a habit of pushing his main characters into a “married the opposite sex love interest, have a family” traditional happy ending. Not all of them, granted. But a lot of them. Of all the others, though (Deyna and Bryony come to mind right now but there are probably more I’m not thinking of) they always seem to still read straight to me.
It was always kind of a sore point to me that he wrote characters everyone can relate to but there’s no openly gay characters or anyone ever talking about it, ever? But Martin reads gay to me, or at least, not straight. And I want this.
So it’s probably the reason I don’t like the Martin/Rose ship is that I’ve always been very gay, I’ve always read Martin as gay, so I’ve never read the story in a light that would suggest the potential future romance to me.
tl:dr it’s completely personal and not actually supported everywhere but I want it to be true so it’s ‘canon’ for me.
Lol well that’s perfectly legitimate! You don’t need a dissertation on why he comes across that way to you. Like I said, I’m on board for every orientation in the spectrum. No one’s said trans yet, but I’m down for that too – in fact I would love to explore that a little more.
I just have a lot of feelings about this character, okay
*Slams hands down on the table* Absolutely down for trans Redwall characters (Martin too of course)!
I’m at work right now so my resources are limited and I can’t think of any other characters off the top of my head who I viewed that way, though I think there were one or two.
What about that, guys? Any suggestions?
Same, at work but would love to discuss. I like Romsca as possibly trans, but that’s the only character I can think of. I’d have to reread Pearls of Lutra before being sure.
TRANS CHARACTERS?
I really, really love the headcanon that Tammo from the Long Patrol is a trans boy and Pasque a trans girl. I have no idea why, but I feel it fits so well? Even though there’s no canon evidence?
Other than Tammo really wants to prove to his father that he /is/ a son to be proud of and is worthy to fight in the Long Patrol.
Or, and trans boy Dannflor from Marlfox
OH TAMMO. ACCEPTED, WOWWWWWW
I can also see Dannflor? Yes, very good. These offerings are acceptable. 🙂
Oh, faceheightknifefight sent me an ask that I meant to publish but hit private instead because I’m dumb!
Anyway I wanted to say that the Redwall universe expanded and got more diverse especially in the early 2000s as public opinion changed (I read a lot of the books in the order they were published recently so it stands out) so if Jacques had lived and continued to write until present day we probably would have gotten characters of other orientations and escaped a little from the traditional, white-picket fence romance.
I remember being soooo excited in Doomwyte when we got our first look at a Redwall character marrying again after losing their first mate. That had never happened before in the whole series!!! Who knows what wonders may have awaited us?
(Granted I still haven’t read The Rogue Crew so I don’t know what, if any, changes were made to the universe in there)
I read Doomwyte but totally managed to forget that remarriage thing, that’s pretty cool. I will most likely never read the Rogue Crew because of feels, so… same lol. Definitely agree that he was venturing further in terms of character endings.
It was the otter who’s family was murdered by the ravens and one of the otters from the abbey! They even had a kid together, I think? It’s such a little thing but I was very excited.
I want to read The Rogue Crew but I keep putting it off because it’ll be the last time I get to read a Redwall book for the first time and just….I’m not emotionally ready for this oh man.
But yeah, I definitely wish we had gotten a little more time! There was so much potential…so many things he hadn’t managed to write yet. Sigh.
Not to mention they were slowly getting less black and white, with books like The Outcast of Redwall and Taggerung leading the way. I know it had a certain formula to live up to but we could have done with a little more grey morality.
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